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	<title>Comments on: Not throwing the baby out with the bathwater</title>
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	<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2008/12/04/not-throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater/</link>
	<description>&#34;Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition&#34; Adam Smith.                                   A blog from a British doctor.</description>
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		<title>By: draust</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2008/12/04/not-throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater/#comment-373</link>
		<dc:creator>draust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 15:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.wordpress.com/?p=379#comment-373</guid>
		<description>That is a very interesting question. 

There could be reasons for a PharmaCo NOT to push a &quot;nutritional solution&quot; with a big high-profile campaign. One obvious one is that, since the individual ingredients are presumably all licensed for human consumption as &quot;food supplements&quot;, it would be easy for any vitamin company to concoct an imitation version and flog it as a dietary supplement. Sort of a &quot;super-version&quot;  of the OTC vs branded argument. So the company might be better sticking to a discreet pitch just to the medical profession, backed by trial evidence but consciously low key. 

This is an interesting angle on the argument you often hear on the Alt.Medicine circuit that &quot;PharmaCos won&#039;t research natural and nutritional remedies because they can&#039;t make any money out of them&quot;. One obvious reason being that any remedy of this kind they did come up with would instantly be copied and flogged by hundreds of other people as a &quot;nutritional supplement&quot;. I am no great friend of the PharmaCos, but they are on a bit of a hiding to nothing with this kind of thing. 

A well-known example of this is the search for drugs derived from &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resveratrol&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;resveratrol&lt;/a&gt;, of which  &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRT1720&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;SRT1720&lt;/a&gt; is the best-known example. It will take a long time to get  SRT1720 through all the trials, if it makes it at all. Meanwhile, sales of resveratrol supplements are rocketing. The Pharmas with resveratrol derivatives in the works derivatives must surely have wondered about simply marketing the compounds as &quot;nutritional wonder supplements&quot;, which would just require safety tests and no need to demonstrate any kind of efficacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is a very interesting question. </p>
<p>There could be reasons for a PharmaCo NOT to push a &#8220;nutritional solution&#8221; with a big high-profile campaign. One obvious one is that, since the individual ingredients are presumably all licensed for human consumption as &#8220;food supplements&#8221;, it would be easy for any vitamin company to concoct an imitation version and flog it as a dietary supplement. Sort of a &#8220;super-version&#8221;  of the OTC vs branded argument. So the company might be better sticking to a discreet pitch just to the medical profession, backed by trial evidence but consciously low key. </p>
<p>This is an interesting angle on the argument you often hear on the Alt.Medicine circuit that &#8220;PharmaCos won&#8217;t research natural and nutritional remedies because they can&#8217;t make any money out of them&#8221;. One obvious reason being that any remedy of this kind they did come up with would instantly be copied and flogged by hundreds of other people as a &#8220;nutritional supplement&#8221;. I am no great friend of the PharmaCos, but they are on a bit of a hiding to nothing with this kind of thing. </p>
<p>A well-known example of this is the search for drugs derived from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resveratrol" rel="nofollow">resveratrol</a>, of which  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRT1720" rel="nofollow">SRT1720</a> is the best-known example. It will take a long time to get  SRT1720 through all the trials, if it makes it at all. Meanwhile, sales of resveratrol supplements are rocketing. The Pharmas with resveratrol derivatives in the works derivatives must surely have wondered about simply marketing the compounds as &#8220;nutritional wonder supplements&#8221;, which would just require safety tests and no need to demonstrate any kind of efficacy.</p>
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		<title>By: northerndoctor</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2008/12/04/not-throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater/#comment-369</link>
		<dc:creator>northerndoctor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 21:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.wordpress.com/?p=379#comment-369</guid>
		<description>Very interesting. Maybe I am being naive but why is this so relatively low key in the medical world? One would have expected this to be getting rammed down GPs&#039; throats or directly to patients. 
Could it be that this is a nice little niche and it is more profitable to keep it that way? Who knows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting. Maybe I am being naive but why is this so relatively low key in the medical world? One would have expected this to be getting rammed down GPs&#8217; throats or directly to patients.<br />
Could it be that this is a nice little niche and it is more profitable to keep it that way? Who knows.</p>
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		<title>By: draust</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2008/12/04/not-throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater/#comment-368</link>
		<dc:creator>draust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 20:14:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.wordpress.com/?p=379#comment-368</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Presumably if this had the weight of Big Pharma behind it we would be groaning under a pile of trials and assorted evidence.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It IS &quot;Big Pharma&quot;, Euan. I-Caps are made by &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcon&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Alcon Laboratories&lt;/a&gt; - &quot;the world&#039;s largest eye-care company&quot; as it says on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.icapsinfo.co.uk/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I-caps website&lt;/a&gt;, 2006 revenue US $ 5 Billion, approx 7000 US Employees and approx the same outside the US. Not all that different in size to the largest biotechs, like Genentech. And last I heard, Novartis were &lt;a href=&quot;http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/health/article3701181.ece&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;buying 25% of Alcon for US $ 11 Billion&lt;/a&gt;, with a view to taking over the whole company.

There may be reasons why there aren&#039;t more large-scale trials of the supplements, but lack of dosh seems highly unlikely to be one of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;Presumably if this had the weight of Big Pharma behind it we would be groaning under a pile of trials and assorted evidence.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>It IS &#8220;Big Pharma&#8221;, Euan. I-Caps are made by <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcon" rel="nofollow">Alcon Laboratories</a> &#8211; &#8220;the world&#8217;s largest eye-care company&#8221; as it says on the <a href="http://www.icapsinfo.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">I-caps website</a>, 2006 revenue US $ 5 Billion, approx 7000 US Employees and approx the same outside the US. Not all that different in size to the largest biotechs, like Genentech. And last I heard, Novartis were <a href="http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/health/article3701181.ece" rel="nofollow">buying 25% of Alcon for US $ 11 Billion</a>, with a view to taking over the whole company.</p>
<p>There may be reasons why there aren&#8217;t more large-scale trials of the supplements, but lack of dosh seems highly unlikely to be one of them.</p>
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		<title>By: northerndoctor</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2008/12/04/not-throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater/#comment-367</link>
		<dc:creator>northerndoctor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 08:21:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.wordpress.com/?p=379#comment-367</guid>
		<description>Thanks fox in sox. I guess one of the issues with supplements is that because they aren&#039;t subject to the same regulations it is a bit of a job sorting the wheat from the chaff. This certainly looks more wheatish.
I do agree that the NNT is comparable with many accepted interventions. Presumably if this had the weight of Big Pharma behind it we would be groaning under a pile of trials and assorted evidence.

Michael - any conflicts of interest you would like to declare? I have left your post up in the interests of keeping an open forum and others may wish to explore the claims further.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks fox in sox. I guess one of the issues with supplements is that because they aren&#8217;t subject to the same regulations it is a bit of a job sorting the wheat from the chaff. This certainly looks more wheatish.<br />
I do agree that the NNT is comparable with many accepted interventions. Presumably if this had the weight of Big Pharma behind it we would be groaning under a pile of trials and assorted evidence.</p>
<p>Michael &#8211; any conflicts of interest you would like to declare? I have left your post up in the interests of keeping an open forum and others may wish to explore the claims further.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Edson, MS, L.Ac.</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2008/12/04/not-throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater/#comment-366</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Edson, MS, L.Ac.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 00:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.wordpress.com/?p=379#comment-366</guid>
		<description>As people continue to live longer, the incidence of eye disease such as macular degeneration is on the rise. These types of debilitating eye diseases rob people of vision, and can result in individuals losing their independence.

It is believed that the visual system requires up to 25% of the nutrients we take into our bodies in order to stay healthy. Impaired circulation and/or poor absorption of nutrients can significantly contribute to eye disease.

There is a great deal of peer review research now showing the vision can be preserved through a proper diet and specific nutritional supplementation.

Essential nutrients include lutein, zeaxanthin, omega-3 fatty acids, taurine, gingko biloba, lycopene, vitamin A, E, zinc, copper, selenium for example, that can help both prevent the onset of eye disease such as macular degeneration as well as help preserve vision for those with macular degeneration.

For more information and specific research studies by eye condition on nutrition and vision, go to www.naturaleyecare.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As people continue to live longer, the incidence of eye disease such as macular degeneration is on the rise. These types of debilitating eye diseases rob people of vision, and can result in individuals losing their independence.</p>
<p>It is believed that the visual system requires up to 25% of the nutrients we take into our bodies in order to stay healthy. Impaired circulation and/or poor absorption of nutrients can significantly contribute to eye disease.</p>
<p>There is a great deal of peer review research now showing the vision can be preserved through a proper diet and specific nutritional supplementation.</p>
<p>Essential nutrients include lutein, zeaxanthin, omega-3 fatty acids, taurine, gingko biloba, lycopene, vitamin A, E, zinc, copper, selenium for example, that can help both prevent the onset of eye disease such as macular degeneration as well as help preserve vision for those with macular degeneration.</p>
<p>For more information and specific research studies by eye condition on nutrition and vision, go to <a href="http://www.naturaleyecare.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.naturaleyecare.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: fox in sox</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2008/12/04/not-throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater/#comment-365</link>
		<dc:creator>fox in sox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 22:33:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.wordpress.com/?p=379#comment-365</guid>
		<description>The AREDS study is worth reading, Oct 2001 American Journal of Ophthalmology.

4000 patients with impecable double masking and photo assessment of progression, supervised by the Wilmer eye institute, probably the best eye dept in the USA.

Interestingly it was a trial of hypersupplementation, with deliberately 5 x RDa doses, and the patients already had higher serum vitamins than the USA average. They were not malnourished.

The study is being rerun as AREDS 2 to assess the role of Leuteins etc. The formulation used in AREDS was &quot;ocuvite preservision&quot; marketed as preservision in the UK.

I share your scepticism about a lot of food supplements but for once there is substantial evidence for the use of these in ARMD. The number needed to treat is not out of order compared with a lot of other interventions such as mild systemic hypertension, and may well beat Lucentis in cost effectiveness.

If this was another drug then there would be much less controversery, but supplements do have the whiff of quakery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The AREDS study is worth reading, Oct 2001 American Journal of Ophthalmology.</p>
<p>4000 patients with impecable double masking and photo assessment of progression, supervised by the Wilmer eye institute, probably the best eye dept in the USA.</p>
<p>Interestingly it was a trial of hypersupplementation, with deliberately 5 x RDa doses, and the patients already had higher serum vitamins than the USA average. They were not malnourished.</p>
<p>The study is being rerun as AREDS 2 to assess the role of Leuteins etc. The formulation used in AREDS was &#8220;ocuvite preservision&#8221; marketed as preservision in the UK.</p>
<p>I share your scepticism about a lot of food supplements but for once there is substantial evidence for the use of these in ARMD. The number needed to treat is not out of order compared with a lot of other interventions such as mild systemic hypertension, and may well beat Lucentis in cost effectiveness.</p>
<p>If this was another drug then there would be much less controversery, but supplements do have the whiff of quakery.</p>
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		<title>By: northerndoctor</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2008/12/04/not-throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater/#comment-364</link>
		<dc:creator>northerndoctor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 14:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.wordpress.com/?p=379#comment-364</guid>
		<description>I know, I know - the website doesn&#039;t inspire confidence from the health professional viewpoint. Dr Crippen drew attention to that (link above) last year. 
I am fairly sure the patient I saw was being prescribed - rather than a jazzy little box they came in a bog-standard pill pot. If they work with acceptable side-effects (and are cost-effective) then why not prescribe them? 
Giving them out free strikes me as a rather seedy marketing ploy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know, I know &#8211; the website doesn&#8217;t inspire confidence from the health professional viewpoint. Dr Crippen drew attention to that (link above) last year.<br />
I am fairly sure the patient I saw was being prescribed &#8211; rather than a jazzy little box they came in a bog-standard pill pot. If they work with acceptable side-effects (and are cost-effective) then why not prescribe them?<br />
Giving them out free strikes me as a rather seedy marketing ploy.</p>
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		<title>By: Leslie Degner, RN, BSN</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2008/12/04/not-throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater/#comment-363</link>
		<dc:creator>Leslie Degner, RN, BSN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 14:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.wordpress.com/?p=379#comment-363</guid>
		<description>Until I can learn to like kale  (I am working on it), I think a combination of good diet and supplements may be the best option.

Leslie Degner, RN, BSN
www.webrn-maculardegeneration.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Until I can learn to like kale  (I am working on it), I think a combination of good diet and supplements may be the best option.</p>
<p>Leslie Degner, RN, BSN<br />
<a href="http://www.webrn-maculardegeneration.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.webrn-maculardegeneration.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: The Armchair Daddy</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2008/12/04/not-throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater/#comment-362</link>
		<dc:creator>The Armchair Daddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 14:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.wordpress.com/?p=379#comment-362</guid>
		<description>&quot;ICaps helps to protect the eye by reducing oxidative stress and absorbing damaging blue light.&quot;!?!

So, do we prescribe ICAPS or ask the elderly to chew on raw Kale? Or both?

£10.55 for 60 tabs (2 tabs daily) from my nearest chemist (I&#039;ve just asked them). I can see them for £8.55 online.

Interestingly my computer system (System One) will let me prescribe it  although I have not done so yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;ICaps helps to protect the eye by reducing oxidative stress and absorbing damaging blue light.&#8221;!?!</p>
<p>So, do we prescribe ICAPS or ask the elderly to chew on raw Kale? Or both?</p>
<p>£10.55 for 60 tabs (2 tabs daily) from my nearest chemist (I&#8217;ve just asked them). I can see them for £8.55 online.</p>
<p>Interestingly my computer system (System One) will let me prescribe it  although I have not done so yet.</p>
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		<title>By: northerndoctor</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2008/12/04/not-throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater/#comment-361</link>
		<dc:creator>northerndoctor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 13:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.wordpress.com/?p=379#comment-361</guid>
		<description>The following comment was in the post before this - it looks to have gone walkies so I have copied it into its proper home.

Submitted on 2008/12/04 at 9:40pm


Absolutely

And what is worse, the buggers who make this stuff have been handing out freebies in eye clinics


http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/2007/06/crippen-diaries-2007-24.html


John 
nhsblogdoc@gmail.com
Dr John Crippen
http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The following comment was in the post before this &#8211; it looks to have gone walkies so I have copied it into its proper home.</p>
<p>Submitted on 2008/12/04 at 9:40pm</p>
<p>Absolutely</p>
<p>And what is worse, the buggers who make this stuff have been handing out freebies in eye clinics</p>
<p><a href="http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/2007/06/crippen-diaries-2007-24.html" rel="nofollow">http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/2007/06/crippen-diaries-2007-24.html</a></p>
<p>John<br />
<a href="mailto:nhsblogdoc@gmail.com">nhsblogdoc@gmail.com</a><br />
Dr John Crippen<br />
<a href="http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/</a></p>
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