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	<title>Comments on: Homeopathic clairvoyant dogs. Er, barking.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://northerndoctor.com/2009/04/10/homeopathic-clairvoyant-dogs-er-barking/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2009/04/10/homeopathic-clairvoyant-dogs-er-barking/</link>
	<description>&#34;Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition&#34; Adam Smith.                                   A blog from a British doctor.</description>
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		<title>By: Simon Baker</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2009/04/10/homeopathic-clairvoyant-dogs-er-barking/#comment-782</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 15:07:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.com/?p=870#comment-782</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t blog. Too much of a Luddite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t blog. Too much of a Luddite.</p>
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		<title>By: northerndoctor</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2009/04/10/homeopathic-clairvoyant-dogs-er-barking/#comment-780</link>
		<dc:creator>northerndoctor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 07:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.com/?p=870#comment-780</guid>
		<description>Also - are you blogging anywhere?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also &#8211; are you blogging anywhere?</p>
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		<title>By: northerndoctor</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2009/04/10/homeopathic-clairvoyant-dogs-er-barking/#comment-779</link>
		<dc:creator>northerndoctor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 07:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.com/?p=870#comment-779</guid>
		<description>Simon and Morag,

Thanks for your comments - I haven&#039;t read the letters yet but thanks for highlighting them to me. I have just grubbed out the issue from a pile of Vet Records in the lounge and I will take a gander later.

I wrote about twice as much in my first draft and I felt I could have dredged this paper for about 3 weeks and still been able to come up with &#039;internal contradictions and inconsistencies&#039;. It really was a shocker.

BTW Top effort by the BVVS - I noted Simon Singh namechecked you a few weeks ago in the nationals. Nice one - you deserve the recognition given the scale of the task when articles like this are waltzing into your peer-reviewed journal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon and Morag,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments &#8211; I haven&#8217;t read the letters yet but thanks for highlighting them to me. I have just grubbed out the issue from a pile of Vet Records in the lounge and I will take a gander later.</p>
<p>I wrote about twice as much in my first draft and I felt I could have dredged this paper for about 3 weeks and still been able to come up with &#8216;internal contradictions and inconsistencies&#8217;. It really was a shocker.</p>
<p>BTW Top effort by the BVVS &#8211; I noted Simon Singh namechecked you a few weeks ago in the nationals. Nice one &#8211; you deserve the recognition given the scale of the task when articles like this are waltzing into your peer-reviewed journal.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Baker</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2009/04/10/homeopathic-clairvoyant-dogs-er-barking/#comment-778</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 07:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.com/?p=870#comment-778</guid>
		<description>&quot;In itself, it could be argued, that the 12.5 % figure is justification for not publishing this trial.&quot;

What the authors seemed to be doing was attempting to use that 12.5% in a manner analogous to p&lt;0.05, which begs all manner of questions.

Most importantly, would they have done that calculation if they did not already know it would come out with the &quot;right&quot; answer? Unless it has been stated as a prior hypothesis, all a calculation like this does is show the danger of data dredging. Doing it post hoc is makes it in no way comparable to testing a prior hypothesis at p&lt;0.05, and you don&#039;t even need to get all Bayesian to see this as being obvious.

While mentioning Bayes, what is very difficult to get across (because it sounds like sour grapes), is that frequentist statistical methods have essentially no applicability to hypotheses that have close to zero prior probability. This is where the appeal for &quot;more research&quot; is simply misplaced, especially in a field as small as veterinary medicine where it is impossible to tun a trial with adequate numbers to provide anything like enough statistical power. A great big heap of weak trial data lends no effective support to homeopathy. It all adds up to a picture of these trials simply being done for political ends, to give the appearance of playing the scientific gain.

As I said, though, the problem is that this can just sound like sour grapes especially to the statistically illiterate, so I try to refrain from using this argument, because there are only so many days left in one&#039;s life to try to teach statistics to those who do not want to learn. Much more efficiently fatal to homeopathy is to take their many claims at face value then highlight the internal contradictions and inconsistencies. As with so much fringe medicine, because they have no proper basis for any of their beliefs, their system becomes a chaotic accretion of all sorts of ideas. One I am focusing on at the moment is the use of nosodes instead of licensed vaccines in dogs. Many homeopaths might argue that nosodes are not &#039;orthodox&#039; homeopathy. Many other homeopaths use them without a quibble. Their representative bodies have remained silent when asked for evidence of efficacy or to respond to examples where puppies left unprotected by the use of nosodes die of preventable disease.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In itself, it could be argued, that the 12.5 % figure is justification for not publishing this trial.&#8221;</p>
<p>What the authors seemed to be doing was attempting to use that 12.5% in a manner analogous to p&lt;0.05, which begs all manner of questions.</p>
<p>Most importantly, would they have done that calculation if they did not already know it would come out with the &quot;right&quot; answer? Unless it has been stated as a prior hypothesis, all a calculation like this does is show the danger of data dredging. Doing it post hoc is makes it in no way comparable to testing a prior hypothesis at p&lt;0.05, and you don&#039;t even need to get all Bayesian to see this as being obvious.</p>
<p>While mentioning Bayes, what is very difficult to get across (because it sounds like sour grapes), is that frequentist statistical methods have essentially no applicability to hypotheses that have close to zero prior probability. This is where the appeal for &quot;more research&quot; is simply misplaced, especially in a field as small as veterinary medicine where it is impossible to tun a trial with adequate numbers to provide anything like enough statistical power. A great big heap of weak trial data lends no effective support to homeopathy. It all adds up to a picture of these trials simply being done for political ends, to give the appearance of playing the scientific gain.</p>
<p>As I said, though, the problem is that this can just sound like sour grapes especially to the statistically illiterate, so I try to refrain from using this argument, because there are only so many days left in one&#039;s life to try to teach statistics to those who do not want to learn. Much more efficiently fatal to homeopathy is to take their many claims at face value then highlight the internal contradictions and inconsistencies. As with so much fringe medicine, because they have no proper basis for any of their beliefs, their system becomes a chaotic accretion of all sorts of ideas. One I am focusing on at the moment is the use of nosodes instead of licensed vaccines in dogs. Many homeopaths might argue that nosodes are not &#039;orthodox&#039; homeopathy. Many other homeopaths use them without a quibble. Their representative bodies have remained silent when asked for evidence of efficacy or to respond to examples where puppies left unprotected by the use of nosodes die of preventable disease.</p>
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		<title>By: Morag Kerr</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2009/04/10/homeopathic-clairvoyant-dogs-er-barking/#comment-774</link>
		<dc:creator>Morag Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 22:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.com/?p=870#comment-774</guid>
		<description>Oh, that did me good!  Thanks for finding this, Simon.

Northern Doctor, you have no idea how hard it was to write letters about this abortion of a paper while trying to stay within shouting distance of the Vet Record&#039;s word limits.  When the barrel is as stuffed full of fish as this one, and you only have a limited number of shots, you can&#039;t get them all....

And then of course the authors get the last word.  The thing is farcical.  It says more about the Vet Rec&#039;s scrutineering standards than anything else, but I doubt if we&#039;ll ever get Martin Alder to understand that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, that did me good!  Thanks for finding this, Simon.</p>
<p>Northern Doctor, you have no idea how hard it was to write letters about this abortion of a paper while trying to stay within shouting distance of the Vet Record&#8217;s word limits.  When the barrel is as stuffed full of fish as this one, and you only have a limited number of shots, you can&#8217;t get them all&#8230;.</p>
<p>And then of course the authors get the last word.  The thing is farcical.  It says more about the Vet Rec&#8217;s scrutineering standards than anything else, but I doubt if we&#8217;ll ever get Martin Alder to understand that.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Baker</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2009/04/10/homeopathic-clairvoyant-dogs-er-barking/#comment-773</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 21:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.com/?p=870#comment-773</guid>
		<description>Brilliant blog piece.

Please have a look at the letters published last week, of one of which I am an author (while also being Vice-President of the British Veterinary Voodoo Society, so thanks for the namecheck).

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/current.dtl

Letters:

George W. Tribe
Pilot study of the effect of homeopathy on pruritus associated with atopic dermatitis in dogs 
Vet Rec. 2009 164: 634. [Full Text] [PDF]  
Simon J. Baker and Gordon J. Baker
Pilot study of the effect of homeopathy on pruritus associated with atopic dermatitis in dogs 
Vet Rec. 2009 164: 634-635. [Full Text] [PDF]  
Morag G. Kerr, Christopher A. Hebbern, Paul Wilson, and Joseph J. Magrath
Pilot study of the effect of homeopathy on pruritus associated with atopic dermatitis in dogs 
Vet Rec. 2009 164: 635. [Full Text] [PDF]  
P. B. Hill, J. Hoare, and R.T. Mathie
Pilot study of the effect of homeopathy on pruritus associated with atopic dermatitis in dogs 
Vet Rec. 2009 164: 635-636. [Full Text] [PDF]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brilliant blog piece.</p>
<p>Please have a look at the letters published last week, of one of which I am an author (while also being Vice-President of the British Veterinary Voodoo Society, so thanks for the namecheck).</p>
<p><a href="http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/current.dtl" rel="nofollow">http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/current.dtl</a></p>
<p>Letters:</p>
<p>George W. Tribe<br />
Pilot study of the effect of homeopathy on pruritus associated with atopic dermatitis in dogs<br />
Vet Rec. 2009 164: 634. [Full Text] [PDF]<br />
Simon J. Baker and Gordon J. Baker<br />
Pilot study of the effect of homeopathy on pruritus associated with atopic dermatitis in dogs<br />
Vet Rec. 2009 164: 634-635. [Full Text] [PDF]<br />
Morag G. Kerr, Christopher A. Hebbern, Paul Wilson, and Joseph J. Magrath<br />
Pilot study of the effect of homeopathy on pruritus associated with atopic dermatitis in dogs<br />
Vet Rec. 2009 164: 635. [Full Text] [PDF]<br />
P. B. Hill, J. Hoare, and R.T. Mathie<br />
Pilot study of the effect of homeopathy on pruritus associated with atopic dermatitis in dogs<br />
Vet Rec. 2009 164: 635-636. [Full Text] [PDF]</p>
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		<title>By: northerndoctor</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2009/04/10/homeopathic-clairvoyant-dogs-er-barking/#comment-675</link>
		<dc:creator>northerndoctor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.com/?p=870#comment-675</guid>
		<description>Hi Geraint, thanks for the comments. Without looking at the paper again, I am fairly certain that the dogs only received one round of homeopathy and one round of placebo. In the discussion, the authors themselves acknowledged and quoted the 12.5% figure of these results happening by chance alone. To a certain extent, I felt the discussion tried to represent both sides of the argument while tying itself in knots as it justified its own existence.  In itself, it could be argued, that the 12.5 % figure is justification for not publishing this trial. Not because the results were positive or negative but simply because the methodology doesn&#039;t stand up.

To use crossover studies the condition really needs to be stable ie non-fluctuating. This simply isn&#039;t the case with canine atopic dermatitis and it looks like it has been used as a mechanism to cope with tiny numbers rather than it being the best choice of methodology per se. It&#039;s not like it is some super-rare condition and there is a shortage of canine atopic dermatitis is it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Geraint, thanks for the comments. Without looking at the paper again, I am fairly certain that the dogs only received one round of homeopathy and one round of placebo. In the discussion, the authors themselves acknowledged and quoted the 12.5% figure of these results happening by chance alone. To a certain extent, I felt the discussion tried to represent both sides of the argument while tying itself in knots as it justified its own existence.  In itself, it could be argued, that the 12.5 % figure is justification for not publishing this trial. Not because the results were positive or negative but simply because the methodology doesn&#8217;t stand up.</p>
<p>To use crossover studies the condition really needs to be stable ie non-fluctuating. This simply isn&#8217;t the case with canine atopic dermatitis and it looks like it has been used as a mechanism to cope with tiny numbers rather than it being the best choice of methodology per se. It&#8217;s not like it is some super-rare condition and there is a shortage of canine atopic dermatitis is it?</p>
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		<title>By: geraint griffiths</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2009/04/10/homeopathic-clairvoyant-dogs-er-barking/#comment-674</link>
		<dc:creator>geraint griffiths</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.com/?p=870#comment-674</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a vet, and no fan or homeopathy. I&#039;m also not aware of the finer points of the methodology in the paper in question. However, it occurs to me that even if only one owner could tell the difference with 100% accuracy between when their dog received a placebo and when it received the remedy on sufficient occasions, (eg 15 or more)  this would be signicant. Of course, the blinding and randomisation would have to be absolutely rigorous...
  I&#039;m not sure how many therapy  comparisons were made in the paper, but one hopes prof hill doesnt end up looking like Bienveniste did with inadequete blinding controls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a vet, and no fan or homeopathy. I&#8217;m also not aware of the finer points of the methodology in the paper in question. However, it occurs to me that even if only one owner could tell the difference with 100% accuracy between when their dog received a placebo and when it received the remedy on sufficient occasions, (eg 15 or more)  this would be signicant. Of course, the blinding and randomisation would have to be absolutely rigorous&#8230;<br />
  I&#8217;m not sure how many therapy  comparisons were made in the paper, but one hopes prof hill doesnt end up looking like Bienveniste did with inadequete blinding controls.</p>
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		<title>By: draust</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2009/04/10/homeopathic-clairvoyant-dogs-er-barking/#comment-639</link>
		<dc:creator>draust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.com/?p=870#comment-639</guid>
		<description>Nice work, Euan.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Homeopaths for humans could claim (although inexplicably they tend not to) that they are providing some kind of psychosocial intervention for the benefit of patients. After all, as Bob Hoskins once said: it’s good to talk.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Indeed. I have, over the last couple of years, tried to popularize the term / description &lt;b&gt;&quot;stealth psychotherapy&quot;&lt;/b&gt; for this aspect of homeopathy, though it doesn&#039;t seem to have caught on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice work, Euan.</p>
<blockquote><p>Homeopaths for humans could claim (although inexplicably they tend not to) that they are providing some kind of psychosocial intervention for the benefit of patients. After all, as Bob Hoskins once said: it’s good to talk.</p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed. I have, over the last couple of years, tried to popularize the term / description <b>&#8220;stealth psychotherapy&#8221;</b> for this aspect of homeopathy, though it doesn&#8217;t seem to have caught on.</p>
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		<title>By: Northern Doctor reads the vet journals &#171; The Witch Doctor</title>
		<link>http://northerndoctor.com/2009/04/10/homeopathic-clairvoyant-dogs-er-barking/#comment-637</link>
		<dc:creator>Northern Doctor reads the vet journals &#171; The Witch Doctor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://northerndoctor.com/?p=870#comment-637</guid>
		<description>[...] HOMEOPATHIC CLAIRVOYANT DOGS. ER, BARKING [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] HOMEOPATHIC CLAIRVOYANT DOGS. ER, BARKING [...]</p>
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